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14 Comments
  1. Cees Mul

    I don't quite understand it yet. Maybe you can answer my question.
    On the CBS site you can find the following:

    Quote

    'Vaccination status 'vaccinated' is defined as 'fully vaccinated' (i.e. two weeks after two approved vaccinations, or a positive test at least 56 days before at least one approved vaccination, or four weeks after vaccination where one vaccination counts as fully vaccinated according to the vaccination certificate, or when a booster or repeat vaccination has been administered without a known basic series) possible with boosters and repeat vaccinations. Vaccination status 'unvaccinated' is defined as no vaccination known or only one vaccination known without previously reported infection (with the exception of the vaccine where one vaccination counted as fully vaccinated).

    Unquote

    My question: People with 1 'vaccination' are therefore considered unvaccinated according to the CBS method. Only with a 2nd shot (infections aside) is the stamp 'vaccinated' put on. The only thing that has changed is the period after that. Then you miss people who died after the first injection and therefore never got around to a second one, don't you? Or is that information actually in the CBS tables?

    This is only about the injections that had to be administered 2 times. The mRNA basically. AZ was a one-off.

    Reply
    1. Anton Theunissen

      I think the answer lies in this (Herman is offline for a while):
      "As we will see later, in the period between the 1st and 2nd vaccination (at least 4 weeks), there does not seem to be any decrease in mortality from covid-19. One explanation could be that the vaccine can only prevent mortality from an infection that occurs after the protection has been restored. Mortality then only occurs a few weeks after the infection, so with that explanation it is understandable that we do not see any effect in the first month after the first injection."
      (That also applies to those two weeks 'just pricked' after that, I think.)

      Reply
      1. Cees Mul

        There's something else. I looked at the CSV on twitter which is the basis. Here's any number of lines:

        2022,46,2022-11-20,33,243,059,427,8,707,0,17,T,T,fully vaccinated with delay
        2022,47,2022-11-27,22,215,025,404,4,529,0,14,T,T,fully vaccinated with delay
        2022,48,2022-12-04,43,362,089,634,5,559,0,14,T,T,fully vaccinated with delay
        2022,49,2022-12-11,42,431,124,737,10,1693,0,36,T,T,fully vaccinated with delay
        2022,50,2022-12-18,55,504,195,812,7,1007,0,23,T,T,fully vaccinated with delay
        2022,51,2022-12-25,80,1017,532,1503,12,1169,0,25,T,T,fully vaccinated with delay
        2022,52,2023-01-01,70,519,25,788,14,1168,0,24,T,T,fully vaccinated with delay
        2021,1,2021-01-10,0,0,0,0,636,4838,3933,5742,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,2,2021-01-17,0,0,0,0,597,4784,3844,5725,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,3,2021-01-24,0,0,0,0,591,4375,3501,5248,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,4,2021-01-31,8,1985,0,44,468,4253,3306,52,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,5,2021-02-07,32,1266,259,2273,378,4234,3199,527,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,6,2021-02-14,109,2241,1212,327,281,4474,3266,5682,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,7,2021-02-21,155,2644,1492,3796,194,2784,1878,369,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,8,2021-02-28,107,1471,717,2225,115,1712,985,244,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,9,2021-03-07,72,935,366,1505,92,1598,867,2329,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,10,2021-03-14,52,493,141,845,77,177,928,2611,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,11,2021-03-21,27,288,0,6,67,2702,1375,4029,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,12,2021-03-28,39,267,092,441,47,1044,486,1602,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,13,2021-04-04,14,151,0,3,43,1959,822,3096,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,14,2021-04-11,17,141,013,269,38,1769,582,2956,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,15,2021-04-18,21,223,0,4,35,16,507,2692,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,16,2021-04-25,11,064,0,1,27,1509,294,2723,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,17,2021-05-02,15,174,0,3,37,1339,334,2344,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,18,2021-05-09,21,21,0,4,24,1243,255,223,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,19,2021-05-16,17,194,009,379,25,2133,546,372,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,20,2021-05-23,16,183,0,4,15,1181,0,24,T,T,immediately after first dose
        2021,21,2021-05-30,4,086,0,2,10,508,0,11,T,T,immediately after first dose

        A description is therefore 'immediately after first dose'. I would like to understand the underlying data. This phrase seems to indicate that CBS may have shared more than intended?

        Source: https://pastebin.com/raw/RvG4gyve

        Reply
      2. Anton Theunissen

        "But what else do the numbers in this report show? There was criticism of this approach, because there would also be many victims in those weeks after the 1st vaccination. We also see this in the graphs, but CBS doesn't pay any attention to it."
        That's what you mean I guess.

        Reply
  2. Cees Mul

    I see it now. They did take it with them. 'without waiting period, after first vaccination'. I think that's the category 'immediately after first dose'.

    Reply
  3. Cees Mul

    Perhaps a suggestion to add a short description of the underlying data to the introduction? For me, at least, it wasn't entirely clear. Now it is.
    Assume that this article is under attack from all sides. So it's better to align everything clearly.
    I wonder if CBS deliberately published the number of deaths after the first vaccination, or was it a mistake? Pretty lethal mistake (pardon the pun).
    Many people have already delved into the data internationally. This cannot be reversed.

    Nu stop ik. Bedankt voor deze analyse weer.

    Reply
    1. Herman Steigstra

      Another addition to Anton's explanation: CBS makes a confusing distinction between "vaccinated" and "fully vaccinated". Vaccinated was 2 weeks after the first shot, you were fully vaccinated 2 weeks after the 2nd shot (or 4 weeks after the 1st if there was only 1 shot). Now it is the case that you are fully vaccinated immediately after the 2nd shot.
      But for the analysis, changing the definition doesn't matter at all. However, as a "service", CBS has thought to show that changing the definition makes little difference by publishing the intermediate counts. And we can now put them to good use.

      I do not rule out the possibility that CBS felt cornered and sent a message with this publication that was actually forbidden.

      Reply
  4. Arnoud

    They're in quicksand. They sink deeper and deeper. And if they move to want to do something about it, it only gets worse. Only finishing from the outside will be offered solace. But then they have to ask for help. As it looks now, they prefer to drown ... And are even prepared to drag the entire community along with them. Bunch of sad people.

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  5. Arnold Schelstraete

    What I don't understand at all regarding the effectiveness of the vaccine is the fact that at the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022, hospitals were overcrowded with corona patients. In some countries Canada, Denmark, Cyprus, Japan, Australia, Israel etc. there were more corona patients than ever before. The vaccine is said to prevent hospitalization and death. When I quote the figures from Our World in Data, I am told to take into account the number of unvaccinated people and put the numbers in context. I am of the opinion that the vaccine does not prevent hospitalization at all, especially because some of the unvaccinated will also have built up immunity through infection. Is my thinking wrong or do I have to take into account a number of additional factors before drawing conclusions? Thank you in advance for your response.

    Reply
    1. Herman Steigstra

      Those are our thoughts too. You'll also see it from February 2021. Hospitalizations began to rise at the time of vaccination

      Reply
      1. Cees Mul

        In addition: the reason that all those people have been admitted as unvaccinated is caused by the largest Covid smokescreen, also mentioned above; The fact that people are only seen as vaccinated 2 weeks after the 2nd shot. This has been applied worldwide. As Professor Norman Fenton has pointed out, this is how you can make the greatest poison seem safe and effective. After all, anyone who dies from it or becomes ill from it within 6 weeks is considered unvaccinated. The solution? Vaccinate even more, of course. A vicious circle.
        I don't think the uncritical narrative followers know this. This is despite the fact that it is (or was) on the RIVM site.
        This simple, unquestionable fact should be known to everyone.

        Reply
  6. JVI

    This article is a missed opportunity.

    This is because the same mistake is made as with the RIVM analyses about the start of the vaccinations: nothing can be said about the efficacy of the vaccination with simple statistical techniques because there are far too many disturbing factors.

    The definition of vaccinated/unvaccinated is just one of those confounding factors. Other factors are: downward trend epidemic after peak at the end of 2020, order of vaccination based on vulnerability/age groups, seasonal effects and special effects such as the 'healthy vaccinee' effect. All these kinds of effects must first be filtered out of the mortality figures, or made the analysis more specific (e.g. by age group) in order to really come to conclusions about the efficacy of vaccines in the period up to June 2021. Lumping all deaths together during this period is not productive.

    It would have been more convincing to visualize the effects of the definitions on the basis of previous analyses by RIVM and CBS of the effectiveness or effects with some of our own, stylized example calculations and pictures.

    Furthermore, I couldn't easily reproduce the 8% effectiveness in 2022. Could you elaborate on that? It became clear to me during my attempts that the calculation is very sensitive to the assumption of 7% underreporting. That is also somewhat alarming.

    Reply
    1. Anton Theunissen

      We turn the numbers we have inside out and squeeze them to the last drop. We look forward to hearing your method and data so that we can work more accurately.

      Over die 8%: dat soort lage percentages schieten al gauw alle kanten op, je moet er niet teveel waarde aan hechten.

      Er komt morgen of overmorgen een nieuw artikel waarin de VE wat preciezer wordt berekend.

      Reply

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