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26 Comments
  1. Luk Jacobs

    Knack, with money from USAID, was fortunately dried up by Trump...

    Reply
  2. Bonne

    I left Herman's article as it was.
    You call it facts.

    But the excess mortality figures are not facts, but interpretations of mortality figures based on suspected mortality. You call that standard mortality.
    And that involves a lot of assumptions. Slight changes in those assumptions result in different 'overstepping' and therefore also different 'puncture damage'. And that increases exponentially, or turns into no damage at all.

    I think that is a number that you can compare with thumb sucking.

    Anyway, our fact checkers don't understand that. And you indeed get worthless articles that cannot be called a fact check but consist of fallacies.

    Reply
    1. Anton Theunissen

      I don't see the word 'facts' above...?

      I can't imagine calling it that. It is a calculation based on easily explained principles. I would like to hear a more plausible calculation. Of course, there are countless nuances that can be added, all of which yield something different, especially now that the intervening period is becoming longer and longer.

      If only they would go into something substantive, such as the calculation method (which approximates all CBS forecasts well), then we might get somewhere. It may indeed be better. Gladly even. But all you hear is “no, that's not right”.

      There are many alternatives. We are only interested in a tool that is in line with how the government has always done things. Or how the actuaries did it before they added the 'excess mortality terms'.

      Reply
      1. Bonne

        “With which all CBS forecasts are closely approximated.”

        I have already explained that the mortality forecast from CBS had a huge artefact among the 80+ and women. It is not entirely coincidental that women are overrepresented in the 80+ age group.

        By shying away from approaching CBS, you intrinsically admit that you have made the same basic mistake.

        And I have already shown this to you several times. I don't understand why you include this as a 'plus' for your calculation.

        Sometimes I wonder whether your desire to prove that vaccination causes collateral damage blinds you to such mistakes. It seems that the end justifies the means. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you do this consciously. I understand that you are driven.

        But that CBS expectation was really very bad. That helped them in the beginning with the exaggerated corona 'excess' mortality, but eventually it caught on and they abandoned it.

        Reply
    2. jillis cricket

      Bonne, you say this. Slight changes in those assumptions result in different 'overstepping' and therefore also different 'puncture damage'. And that increases exponentially, or turns into no damage at all.
      I think that is a number that you can compare with thumb sucking.

      This is a bit of a strange reaction, isn't it? I know you don't always agree with Herman and that's fine of course. But there is https://sterftemonitor.nl/ made a baseline as objective as possible, something that they have not done at the RIVM, then you have to see that we are dealing with a very significant excess mortality of 50,000 people after 2021. The RIVM baseline tries to wipe this away, you make your own calculations, but you have to do your very best to wipe out those 50,000 people, don't you? I find this a really incomprehensible response from you.

      Reply
      1. Jan van der Zanden

        Well, quite honestly? I really don't think the green and black line is an objective base line.
        https://i.postimg.cc/9X608Cd9/Exponentieel-afnemende-sterfte.png
        My red line makes a lot more sense….

        That's what you get when you use models. They are always open to criticism.
        Therefore, it is better to just take the raw mortality/100,000/year group. See the article and my response there. You can read enough misery from that in 2021 - 2024. And that is simply objective, not contestable. Facts!
        The excess mortality from 2024 will certainly not disappear in all groups. Let's focus on that. But it is much less dramatic than suggested by Herman (and Anton) with their “aggressively declining standard mortality” (the green and black lines).

        Reply
        1. Anton Theunissen

          Aren't you under the wrong post? The green and black line do not appear in this post, that is stated in this.

          I answered that too.

          It seems that what you find does not correspond to arithmetic results.

          And 'logical' in this case is a subjective concept. I don't think it makes any sense at all that a baseline of absolute mortality remains horizontal or goes up, while the group size is clearly shrinking.
          You actually expect that baseline to go down.

          You could also do it with just mortality probabilities, which might be a bit easier for you to understand. Then you have to divide the observed deaths of recent years by the population sizes of the relevant years. This will not change the differences between expected and observed.

          Reply
          1. Jan van der Zanden

            That's right, that detailed discussion belongs in that other article.
            I think Bonne has a point here. That's why I refer to that other article here.
            I am not writing/suggesting anywhere that mortality should increase over time.
            I just find it illogical that mortality has continued to decline linearly since 2010.
            And I think it is conservatively logical that the decline in mortality is slowing down. And I wanted to express that with that red line (in the wrong graph, because absolute numbers). You can only meaningfully draw that red line like this in a mortality/100,000 graph with small cohorts.
            And then a mortality that is below that of 2018/2019 can in principle no longer be characterized as excess mortality. I think that makes a lot of sense. Even Maarten Keulemans cannot deny that. And the point is that there will be a huge excess mortality from 2021 to 2023. In your graphs last year, it was still there for a number of groups in 2024. And I am very curious about what image the 2025 figures create in those pictures….

            Reply
            1. jillis cricket

              If someone makes graphs of 5 previous cohort per 100k and a baseline until 2019, I would like to see that. We once did that with English data, but after 2023 they will somehow no longer publish those reports. And they are not the only ones, strangely... I am curious about other graph methodology or baseline but brushing away the excess mortality, especially among young people. (Where there is relatively the most excess mortality) seems impossible to me to eliminate.

              Reply
              1. Bonne

                Give me your email address and I will give you my dashboard based on 5 year cohorts. And as an extra you get a division into winter and summer comparison. Because annual mortality with divorce on January 1 is also distorted.

                Reply
                1. Jan van der Zanden

                  Do you also have them every 1 year, including the population size?

                  Reply
                  1. Bonne

                    No, I personally think that cohorts that are too small are too dependent on standard fluctuations. Especially among people under 50, one year with high or low mortality at the end or beginning of your chosen trend can generate considerable deviation in a prediction. This is much more evened out with 5-year cohorts.

                    On the other hand, I have added the Belgians, Danes, Swedes and Portuguese.

                    So divided into seasons, male/female/total, smallest cohorts in 5-year groups, but also larger cohorts.

                    Reply
                    1. Jan van der Zanden

                      Well, here you run into a fundamental statistical problem.
                      1. Within a cohort, mortality is greater as people get older.
                      2. you cannot solve the problem of statistical noise by making your cohorts intrinsically heterogeneous. Then you're comparing apples and oranges again.
                      3. So you will have to accept that if the numbers are small, you simply have a lot of “noise”. You can only determine a significant increase or decrease with a T-test or something similar. And that implies that if you cannot read the excess mortality crystal clearly from the graph, it is just noise. You do not strengthen your argument regarding the presence of excess mortality by aggregating. Artificially smoothing data can lead to seeing patterns that are not there in the raw, unaggregated data. And that undermines your authority with regard to other statements, which may be strong and correct.

                    2. Anton Theunissen

                      Jan does not make a trend or prediction; he takes 2019 mortality as a baseline (or perhaps 2018). Striking things will come out of this, such as with those 40-year-old men. I fell for that too when I first saw it.

                      I don't remember that artifact of 80+ women. However, you did not want to include 2019 in the reference. Well, it seems to me that this is less decisive with an exponential trend line based on 2010-2019 than with a linear trend line based on 2015-2019, which we started with at the time. I still have to work on your dashboard, I haven't had time yet. I'll be able to see that.

      2. Bonne

        Jillis, I don't know if I can find the energy to explain this again.

        In terms of objectivity… I have written an extensive critique, mainly on data point 2019, which was a “flu-free” winter. This data point mainly had a major influence on the mortality of 80+. Since this group creates the greatest absolute mortality, a small miscalculation will have major consequences.
        Data point 2019 was the last of the trend line. Is it realistic to assume that the following years will all be 'some kind of flu-free'?

        The result is then a naturally low mortality expectation, and therefore 'size' excess mortality.

        We are now 15 to 7 years further compared to the chosen trend years. Is this still realistic?

        In addition, Herman states that there is one death for every 1,500 injections.

        Two injections were given in 2021. This then results in a mortality of 1/750 people.
        Have you calculated this to the subgroup 50-65, for example? Where avg. 8 people die per week.
        With 3500k people and a vaccination rate of 70%, this results in 3250 extra deaths in a few weeks. If you spread this over 20 weeks, this results in an additional mortality of 4.5 per 100k. About a 60% increase.
        However, we saw an increase of about 10%. A factor of 6 too high. And if you spread them out over 10 weeks... all model choices and assumptions.
        At the very least, such a rough estimate should be spread across subgroups. Same as with the virus. Vulnerable people die earlier from the virus compared to healthy young people. This also applies to vaccination.

        And I can still expose many flaws in such a calculation.

        In my opinion, this does not help at all in the vaccine damage debate. This will only get you laughs.

        Because one thing is clear. This vaccination had quite a bit of collateral damage. We all agree on that. But those exaggerated calculations make no sense.

        Reply
        1. Jan van der Zanden

          That's my point too. Totally agree.
          But: Herman did apply a triangulation: he discovered that peaks in mortality occurred shortly after the vaccination campaigns. And that is a calculation via a completely different route. If I understand correctly, that 1/1500 is based on that. Not on the generic excess mortality per year.

          Reply
        2. jillis cricket

          Fine if you don't think that baseline until 2019 is realistic, but 2020 had, apart from the flu, idiotic measures and enormous problems with primary care that was skipped and hospitals with poor protocols. So apart from all this, this bar has the least excess mortality of the past 5 to 6 years.
          Suppose that without all that idiocy, the excess mortality in 2020 would have been a few thousand fewer people, because no one was really saved by this misery. And if you then create a new baseline, you will still see enormous excess mortality and a break in the trend. I dare say that is a fact. Meanwhile, I don't know what will help the discussion, people are short of arguments so I have no illusion that nuance will make any difference in the denial. And then you just have to mention the matter and wake people up. Even though they are e. A few thousand deaths too many. Everyone just needs to know that things are not going well, but almost no one knows this. Or they don't care, that's also possible.

          Reply
          1. Jan van der Zanden

            “People” are not blind to the arguments. The expected mortality model is being challenged. And that can also be combated. Because it is “just a model”, with a fairly strong decline in mortality since 2019. And that is an exaggeration.

            That is why you can only be convinced if, even with a conservative model, there is evident excess mortality. And that model is: per age cohort of 1 year, there may not be a significant increase in mortality compared to the series of years from 2010 to 2019. And then possibly. still a small decrease compared to recent/lowest years. Remember: 2019 had no flu, so it was already quite low.
            And then you see that there was a huge amount of excess mortality from 2021 to 2023. In almost all ages.
            And then you also see that this excess mortality had been largely resolved by 2024. But certainly not for every category. And a special feature was the baby boom of 1945. They were quite unhealthy and therefore died more often. You could read that very clearly from those graphs. I have not yet seen the correct figures/graphs for 2025.

            Reply
            1. Bonne

              I agree with you. I don't want to give hard numbers on (excess) mortality, because then you end up in discussions about models, instead of about tipping points.

              That is why it is so nice to divide it into summer and winter mortality.

              Winter wants to fluctuate (viruses), summer actually does not.

              And then you see that the summer mortality of 2021 is a tipping point.

              The summer of vaccinations, QR codes, dancing with Jansen, and the rise of the Delta variant.

              In my opinion, this provides more 'evidence'. Statistically, summer mortality is much more stable, and it is easier to see deviations. And it also coincided nicely with a large part of the vaccination wave.
              https://x.com/i/status/2041910400904482971

              Reply
              1. jillis cricket

                Thanks, that's right! With a slightly less negative baseline you can still demonstrate excess mortality, and I say so. That summer mortality speaks volumes. Hopefully you know that people like M. Keulemans, Van Galen, Andreas Vos, M. Bonten and associates only claim that mortality now only occurs during flu seasons. That is simply a very wrong statement, especially if you base it on a RIVM baseline. But still, thanks for the answer gentlemen!

                Reply
              2. Jan van der Zanden

                Good idea. But does that still work now? Isn't it a problem that the vaccinations are now given after the summer or at the very end of the summer? So then you don't see that effect in those stable summer periods, right?

                Reply
                1. Anton Theunissen

                  The level has also been increased in the summer – at least, depending on the baseline of course. The one from the RIVM is not too bad: little to nothing to see. The excess mortality has been put on the map precisely because of the summer mortality. That was in '21. Only in '23 did things seem to go well, but the other summers had excess mortality. Also '24 and '25. Pre-2020 was calculated in the same way (Normal mortality) and they look normal.

                  Reply
                2. jillis cricket

                  Hi Jan, the big problem with these vaccinations is that they affect many different places in the body. Acute mortality is likely to be multi-system. Too much production of spike protein, this can also be expressed in different ways. Brain haemorrhage, myocardial infarction, vasculitis, blood clots.
                  That is already a long list of misery, but the problem is not yet solved. See, for example, the heart muscle inflammation that people suffer from for the rest of their lives, with a very increased risk of dying from it. Blood clots, same story. Spike protein passed through the l.n.d. ends up everywhere in the body and causes inflammation. Consequence autoimmune disease (LC), brain problems, intestinal problems, cardiovascular diseases, nerve problems. In short, not a simple problem.

                  Reply
                  1. Jan van der Zanden

                    That's right. Someone wrote that about half of the damage occurs within a few weeks. And the rest may only be done years later... So the “Bonne Method” detects that one half better if it is administered after the injection after the summer.

                    Reply
                    1. jillis cricket

                      yes, in that sense for sure! Quite interesting to take a closer look at this. Different age groups, different cohorts. Create a 10-year Baseline per 100k and then calculate. I saw your PDF and I see that you have already created a lot! Now women are generally even more sensitive to these problems. Perhaps you can highlight a number of graphs and see how this summer-winter difference works out.

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