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22 Comments
  1. Hans Verwaart

    Good model, four of course!

    This assumes that in a normal situation, mortality decreases by a certain percentage from year to year in most age groups. Advantage: mortality can never fall below 0.

    Reply
  2. Jan van der Zanden

    This is certainly an improvement over the previously published article. Although unfortunately, inevitably, some speculation remains behind it. But it certainly makes sense. However, it cannot be ruled out that the most realistic trend would have reached an inflection point in 2019 even without Corona and without mRNA, because our mortality was already so darn low. But let's put that discussion aside for a moment...
    The 1st graph with its fluctuations makes me even more curious about the figures for 2025.
    Because are 50-year-old men at or even below the blue trend line? After all, in 2024 their deviation from the line is no greater than in 2002-2006, 2008, 2012 and 2014: the “natural fluctuations”.
    And what will women look like in 2025? Back on track, or permanently elevated?
    For now the conclusion is:
    – women of 50 = an issue
    – men of 50 may be back on track
    I am therefore, once again, very curious about the graphs from 2010 – 2024 in which you can see all fluctuations per year and per age, and not just the values ​​of 2019 and 2024 as in the previous article. Because this more zoomed-in graph of only the 50-year-olds, but with all years, provides a nice illustration that there were quite a few fluctuations in all those years.
    But perhaps that will not provide essentially new information/insights... Maybe those graphs will come again? I'm also fine if they only come in 2026 together with the 2025 figures.
    P.S. Nice that you used my extreme (completely unrealistic) numbers example, inspired by Herman's, to illustrate the population growth and aging effect of 21.1/18.9 = 11.6% on the mortality of 80-year-olds in a crystal clear way for everyone.

    Reply
    1. Herman Steigstra

      Thanks for your response Jan. You can find all the figures via the Excel sheet that we have published in the article we wrote for this:
      https://steig.nl/2025/04/rekenschema-normsterfte/
      That is still the linear model.
      Figures for 2025 will not be available until around June 2026, CBS will not have finished counting before then.
      That there would be a “planned stabilization” in our health in 2020 is an assumption that we have not made. We see the mortality risk decreasing by about 1% every year from 2010-2019. That does not feed us the feeling that it would suddenly be 0% from 2020 “because it has been taking so long”. Healthcare is increasingly able to prolong our lives, especially in the ages of 50-60, as we see in the figures.
      In contrast, we see a decline of 2% per year for all years 2000-2008. A nod (fast steps in the development of treatment methods??). That is why our model runs from 2010, while CBS only takes 5 years into account to calculate a trend.
      And yes, because of this fact, a logarithmic model responds well to this kink and therefore also assumes that this leveling off will also occur from 2020 onwards. A choice of your model, just as much as a parabola assumes that the excess mortality since 2020 can be explained by it. The choice of your model is going to confirm what you want to see.
      And differences in the outcome of your calculations must be due to the unconscious choices you have made.

      Reply
      1. J.G.M. van der Zanden

        Oh well, a freehand extension of the trend line is also “realistic” or logical. But that is a bit more difficult to calculate, so the exp() line, which yields exact points, is fine. But it remains “apparent exactness”. I (or Claude) will end up 3% higher than you. So a little less excess mortality.

        Even then, women aged 50 still show a clear excess mortality for 2024; and the men will then be within the bandwidth in 2024. So the 2025 figures are crucial to see where things are going for the men (and also for the women, of course...).
        I had missed that Xcel; thanks; I'm going to see if I can make those missing graphs myself. Although I have very little time right now….

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        1. Herman Steigstra

          The excel shows the trend lines for all ages. So all the graphs you have in your head. And feel free to create your own variants by combining cohorts.

          Reply
          1. J.G.M. van der Zanden

            Thanx, I'll look into it.
            And. Of course I'm not going to combine them...

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            1. Herman Steigstra

              That depends on the question. For example, if you want to know how much mortality you expect above the age of 65, you have to multiply and add.

              Reply
              1. J.G.M. van der Zanden

                No, that doesn't interest me that much.

                I'm just curious about excess mortality per year and what the trend per year looks like. So approximately 80 (or approximately 160 m/f) graphs with about 20 years in them (x-axis) and deaths/100,000 (y-axis). Maybe I can get ChatGPT to generate all those graphs...

                Reply
  3. J.G.M. van der Zanden

    Just 2 more details:

    1. I don't understand why logarithmic follows "reality" and exponential does not at all. Mi. With exponential, you can also choose the 3 parameters a · e^(bx) + c in such a way that in a smooth curve it practically corresponds to a logarithmic curve in the series 2000 – 2019. In any case, much better than your illustration suggests!

    2. You write "Logarithmic from 2000-2019. A progression that is not substantiated by a physical background, but is wonderfully consistent with the figures from 2003-2019." In my opinion, many natural processes have a logarithmic (decreasing with asymptote, e.g. saturation effects, diminishing returns, learning curves, adaptation to new treatments, the easiest improvements are achieved first, then further improvement becomes increasingly difficult) and/or exponential (half value, e.g. every improvement in healthcare gives a constant percentage improvement) churn So it's not that wonderful at all….

    Reply
    1. J.G.M. van der Zanden

      Double check:

      Claude ends up a lot higher with exp(), namely 855/100,000 instead of approximately 830/100,000 for you. That makes a difference of about 3% and is quite a lot for the definition of excess mortality. Or did you have a completely different exp() function?
      Rara?

      The log() function (has only 2 parameters) does not easily fit through 3 points, but an approximate log() comes out to approximately your 830/100,000.

      P.S. Claude finds a well-fitting exp much easier than a log function. You claim the opposite.
      Rara?

      Exponential function
      y = 516.204 × e^(-0.133482x) + 834.132
      Forecast 2024
      855.1
      Logarithmic function
      y = 1360.342 + -166.417 × ln(x)
      Forecast 2024
      831.5

      Verification: Do the curves pass the 3 checkpoints?
      Year Actual Exp predicted Exp error Log predicted Log error
      2003 1180 1180 0 1177.51 -2.49
      2010 970 970 0 977.15 +7.15
      2019 875 875 0 870.34 -4.66

      Reply
    2. Anton Theunissen

      Herman and I didn't completely agree on that either. It remains a choice for a descriptive approach. The demographic approach remains the most justifiable predictor.

      I personally rely on Excel for drawing trend lines. So I don't know exactly which 'benchmarks' you mean, nor why those years should be benchmarks. I feed the entire series to Excel, I don't select years that I think are more important (or better supports for a line) than others. Then the end is lost again.

      The choice of segment is even decisive. If you take 2000 as a starting point instead of 2003 (or 2002, that's also possible), then it is no longer correct. The period before 2000 is different again. It remains a kind of cherry picking: which one looks best and could display something predictive? Which crystal ball will soon turn out to be right?

      For the prognosis, the choice between the two (and even a linear one) currently does not make much difference for the tens of thousands of unexplained deaths.
      Maybe Claude calculates slightly differently than Excel. I've argued about this with ChatGPT before, who says: The log trend in Excel has the form: 𝑦 = 𝑎 ln(𝑥) + 𝑏
      I took it for granted.

      By the way, we are not talking about a 'bending' in 2021 but about an unexpected plateau increase, a trend break out of nowhere, which immediately flattens out and slowly drops back, hopefully permanently.

      Fortunately, a slowly downward trend can be discerned, although 2024-2025 ended higher than 2023-2024. I don't find the focus on 2024 particularly interesting. In any case, it would be much better to look at the seasonal years, but then again you would be off track. You would have hoped that it would have been over after 2021-2022 – or actually: immediately after vaccination. After all, that was promised. It remains to be seen what 2025-2026 will do, especially this winter.

      Reply
      1. J.G.M. van der Zanden

        What do you mean by demographic vs. descriptive approach?
        For a comparison with 3 unknowns you need 3 benchmarks. I have taken the extremes of the graph and one approximately in the middle, so 2003, 2010 and 2019. With that choice you should not take outliers, but points that are as close to the middle of the line as possible in advance. And that was 2010. Hence.
        I don't agree that linear produces the same thing. That really makes a big difference as you can see from my previous post. So there is a better fit with an exp() function than the one Xcel calculates for you: Claude's. But you're right: it remains extrapolation into the future, and therefore you are looking at coffee grounds.
        There will certainly be a significant deviation from the trend until then in 2020 and beyond. I meant that in 2019 there could be an inflection point (just like around 2010) from which life expectancy would increase less quickly anyway. Again, that is and remains speculation. No one has a monopoly on The Truth there. And due to the disruption of Corona (and the “great unknown”), we will unfortunately never know what would have happened without those disruptions...
        I also found Bonne's seasons very enlightening. Not much to say against it...

        Reply
        1. Herman Steigstra

          We do not draw a line through 3 points, but 200 lines through 20,000 points and a product of 200 lines with 20,000 population numbers per year.

          Reply
        2. Anton Theunissen

          Demographic: Predictable population structure is taken into account
          Descriptive: A formula that describes approximately how a pattern (usually a line) of outcomes runs.

          Reply
          1. Herman Steigstra

            And if the course of the curve is almost entirely determined by demographics, you no longer need to describe it, because these figures are already known... 🙂

            Reply
            1. Anton Theunissen

              If a period can be described with a formula, it is a serious candidate for prediction. If the predictions don't match the demographics, it was nice that things went well for so long 🙂

              Reply
              1. Herman Steigstra

                My point is that the population composition is exactly known. You are not going to “invent” a parabola to describe that progression. You must include this as a given in your model. What remains is a model that only reflects your development in health.
                If the forecast were to agree well, this is not proof that the model is correct.

                Reply
  4. Cyril Wentzel

    Nice article with excellent graphs that I will also use. In my opinion, it is mainly to be able to see through the eyelashes and not to try to derive any further speculative insights from them. This is useful to separate the mortality jump from an aging population, which cannot be a turbo-rise.

    As is known, at the Biomedical Court of Audit we still strive for more transparency of figures. At RIVM. At CBS. Right down to raw data for the causes of death entered, but CBS declared itself inadmissible due to the CBS Act. Given this interpretation of the law, a political solution must be found in the form of a change in the law. At least if good governance is the aim. And as for VWS/RIVM, we are still waiting for the Higher Appeal in the Deltavax case! Council of State, get on with that planning, I would say.

    And we also work with a focus mainly on pathology. Any insight will have to be integrated with causal medical observations. A lot is already known about this, despite the fact that research is actively suppressed and discouraged. And soon more will follow about how much sand has been thrown into the health engine and how it can be detected. With serious consequences for mortality, but also for morbidity. Stay tuned!

    Reply
    1. Anton Theunissen

      Hello Cyril, thank you!

      I closely follow the good works of the BMRK. I've been paying attention to it again recently, as you have here you may have seen.

      Causal medical observations certainly already exist. Everything depends on how the media handles them. So far there has been little interest in it. The reasons are obvious.

      Data transparency is crucial; as far as I am concerned, even priority 1, because causal observations without numerical impact are easily dismissed as anecdotal, not significant or even as disinformation. We see that now. I am very curious whether the MPs will agree to a change in the law - if such a proposal is ever made. Fingers crossed and keep going!

      Reply
    2. Herman Steigstra

      Dear Cyril,
      Thank you for your positive comment. If we can support your useful activities, please let us know!
      I am also working on an article about “effective vaccination rates”. This allows you to calculate a good estimate of the effectiveness of the vaccine based on the well-known figures. But due to lack of time, there is not much progress in writing.
      Especially very useful in the first months of vaccination, when the unvaccinated group is much larger than the unvaccinated. Useful to keep in mind!
      Greetings, Herman

      Reply
  5. Cor de vries

    Will virusvaria become a national threat?

    I recently received an automatic privacy warning when searching for a site!
    Indeed, it is dangerous to visit this site.
    You might just start to doubt the prescribed narrative.

    Reply
    1. c

      Time for a name change? “Excellent” comes to mind. Excel, graft (several meanings), inoculation, excellent... perhaps I have too much imagination, but unfortunately I also have experiences with strange warnings.

      Reply

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