PEC: The medical necessity of Hanneke Schipper

by Anton Theunissen | 6 jul 2026, 11:07

    • English
    • Nederlands
    • Deutsch
...or pay via paypal

cards

Reactions

Comments that are not related to the topic of discussion will be deleted. Always keep comments respectful and substantive.

22 Comments
  1. Jan van der Zanden

    Fundamental rights are fundamental rights for a reason. You should always stay away from that or you should always leave it in place.

    The bizarre thing is that Schipper, in her own belief, built a kind of legal cathedral to justify the proportionality of restricting fundamental rights in relation to public health. Quicksand. See my reflection on her interrogation.

    Reply
    1. Anton Theunissen

      Yes, completely agree. That is the 'spirit' of the law and that is what common sense says. But academic intellect often gets in the way of that common sense. They always find a legal trick to circumvent common sense with one or another 'letter' of the law.

      Reply
    2. Cor De Vries

      The Gupta report was from May 2020 (Nice discussion, Anton and also seen by Volkskrant, MK colleagues!). A case of using the knowledge of the time.

      Unfortunately, PEC appears to suffer from dyscalculia.

      Numbers and jersey numbers (handing out cards to the players who avoided/avoided responsibility) are not something they do, unfortunately.

      Van Dissel could not be deviated from his simple course by any information.

      Keeping people at a distance of 1.5 meters from each other: limiting contact, regardless of who it concerned and regardless of the ventilation context, was at the top of his hierarchy and was sacred. Rest was irrelevant.

      Legal reflections are nice but, apart from Calculie's side, they still fall flat. There was no broad assessment including numbers. Seems like something for general matters to do a proper weighing, but yes, there was Captain van Dissel, who...

      Reply
      1. Jan van der Zanden

        This is largely correct, but unfortunately that legal basis was crucial to maintain the proportionality of the curfew in the emergency appeal at the Court of Appeal.

        Be sure to read my review of Hanneke Schipper: you will be at your beck and call there...

        Reply
  2. Miranda

    Hanneke Schippers seems to adhere to the belief that the physical integrity of person A may be sacrificed (possibly with coercion) for the right to life of person B. At least, that is what I deduced from her answers.

    This could also imply that if person B needs a kidney transplant, person A could be forced to donate a kidney.
    It will probably not come to that, but it does show that the right to life should certainly not always come first.

    The right to life is stated in the ECHR, not in our Constitution. Physical integrity, yes. Unfortunately, international treaties take precedence over national legislation.
    However, the prioritization of conflicting Fundamental Rights is a matter for the House of Representatives. Prioritization should not be decided in backrooms. And that has now happened.

    She has also expressed some rather bold views on 3G and 2G policy (see the broadcast by Marianne Zwagerman and Maurice).

    I found this interrogation quite shocking: the ease and certainty of this official. It seems as if she no longer notices that it concerns people. It's scary.

    10
    Reply
    1. Jan van der Zanden

      100% agree. Read my very critical review of her interrogation...

      Reply
  3. Richard

    That medical necessity made something clear to me. Namely that this medical necessity had to be constructed by the OMT advice. De Jonge, Rutte and possibly Grapperhaus have fixed this via the OMT.
    That also explains why this need keeps cropping up in the interrogations.
    I hope that this will also be taken into account as a recommendation, so that something will be achieved.

    Reply
    1. Jan van der Zanden

      What kind of recommendation are you referring to?????

      Reply
      1. Richard

        I have to look for it. I think I read in the WOB/WOO requests that more medical advice was needed to substantiate lockdowns.

        Reply
        1. Anton Theunissen

          Grapperhaus described that, right? There had to be more serious advice – and that came. He still thought that was poor, but left the judgment to the House. And they voted for as much intervention as possible.

          Reply
          1. c

            Mona Keizer warned last night on cross news that what has been recorded about the intervention could lead to the next time... if the rooms are still handled in the same way, then our fate is sealed... Watch it again if you haven't seen it yet. She keeps talking about traps and in my opinion that is the worst form of tunnel vision. My opinion: It has never, really never been about public health and it still isn't. To make you despondent. The bright spots are all the people who see the systemic rot (worldwide) and try to do something about it.

            Reply
            1. Anton Theunissen

              Didn't Kuipers beg for all that madness to be included in the law? “Otherwise I will be left empty-handed,” he said. So the Senate agreed; imagine that a Minister is prevented from taking devastating measures...

              Reply
            2. Jan G.M. van der Zanden

              It was about public health, but about a tiny part of it: The ICUs and the people who largely only had a few months to live anyway.

              The fact that the rest of the VGZ was hit six times as hard by it did not interest the driving quartet (Rutte, De Jonge, Grapperhaus [but at least he still had some idea that they were wrong....] and Schoof) did not care, or they did not see it, or they did not want to see it, or the others including Mona, did not have the cigar box calculation to show that they were horribly wrong.... And also not that the costs were 75 times higher than the normal standards used for VGZ.

              So the discussion about proportionality remained stuck in vague notions, emotions and fear. Unfortunately, Mona didn't really do well in her interrogation. She also went along with the nonsense measures for a long time, because she (apparently still doesn't) understand the essence of what exactly is disproportionate. Otherwise she could have made a difference much sooner or had to resign. She too was afraid (albeit especially in the beginning). She admitted that too. But just then the wrong paradigm of the Rule of Rescue was deployed. My analysis of her interrogation follows….

              Reply
              1. Anton Theunissen

                Let us not undermine the term public health, which is essentially about the general interest, about the population as a whole and not about advantages or disadvantages for a specific sector, patient group or individual patient. Or does anyone see it differently?

                Reply
              2. Miranda

                Jan, you are right that that proportionality calculation could have been made very well. Unfortunately, they would have had to change the policy. That's why I think there was something else at play that we (the citizens) weren't allowed to know.

                Now I'm going to speculate:
                Suppose classified security information had revealed that it was a laboratory virus, probably a bioweapon. In that case, I would still have some understanding for the choices made, especially if it was suspected that the virus has been engineered in such a way that it is not very deadly in the short term, but can cause a lot of damage to public health in the longer term (e.g. infertility or all kinds of conditions that lead to death after a few years).
                It is logical that in such a case you want to prevent as many people as possible from becoming infected before there is a working vaccine. And I also understand that you keep it a secret to avoid chaos.
                This would also explain why they wanted to vaccinate young people and children even though they did not get sick from the virus. And also explains why they took (and concealed) the large number of side effects for granted.
                Unfortunately, it doesn't explain why they started with the old ones. That must have had to do with credibility. After all, it was always about protecting the vulnerable.
                The fact that no minutes were taken of the Catshuis discussions also fits into this picture.

                Israel has the most and best spies in the world. Israel in particular was very fanatical about vaccinations. That was a reason for me to think: they know more than they tell us. It was also one of the reasons for me to take a vaccine, which subsequently made me very ill.

                It may also be that the possibility of a bioweapon was not an issue at all. Maybe it was something else that was deliberately kept secret. Or it's just incompetence and they never properly discussed the proportionality issue.

                One thing has become very clear from the interrogations: they talk about the proportionality issue with so much in their mouths that the committee has to ask much further questions about this in the second round.

                Reply
        2. Jan G.M. van der Zanden

          Ah, yes, that's right. Grapperhaus found the OMT advice too “light” and only wanted to agree after better substantiation. But if you heard the interrogation correctly, he hoped that it would fail/bleed to death. In any case, he hoped that it would fail in the House of Representatives... Because, according to him, it really went too far. But yes... After approval, he went to the safety meeting with it...

          Reply
  4. Alison

    Emotion enters the brain before logic. People make decisions based on feelings and justify this with added 'logic'. This is how the brain has been shown to work.
    Sorry to be so 'blackpilled', but for me these puppets from the puppet show are mainly 'filings in a magnetic field' that - through their insiders network - focus on 'continuing to earn well'.

    People who live outside the biological tribe of these insiders are given nominal compassion. For the stage. A biological consequence of economies of scale. To her, my life is a number on paper.

    I have no interest in the lies they themselves believe. If they do not have to be truly accountable for the unnecessary deaths that, in my opinion, they are partly guilty of through their actions, then justice stops. Because it hasn't happened, and it never will.

    Count your winnings, Hanneke. Will you get through it unscathed? What about your new pool? Have you already been promoted for proven loyalty?

    I say: Hanneke, don't forget your booster.

    Reply
    1. Alison

      ** By biological I do not mean blood related, but the social order of tribes created by evolution.

      Reply
    2. Anton Theunissen

      Yes. Although 'continuing to earn well' is not even the main focus in my opinion. Just as important is not wanting to be ostracized by their peers and certainly not by those above them. 'continuing to fit well into their social embeddedness' and 'protecting and strengthening their position' are, in my opinion, the strongest motivations. Salary is a derivative of this - and therefore applies simultaneously.

      Reply
    3. Jan G.M. van der Zanden

      Haha, if only you were a number. Really and truly.
      Then, if you are reasonably healthy, you would have a value of (84 -/- your_age) qalys.
      And that applied to all approximately 18 million Dutch people.
      And the measures cost you/us all approximately 0.03333 qaly or something per person. Then you arrive at a very high number. Approx. 600,000 qalys.
      RIVM has already calculated a loss of 320,000 qalys and has therefore admitted it in 2022!

      At most 100,000 have been saved. Count your losses!

      On top of that, it has cost €150 billion in prosperity and therefore health loss.

      That should have made Van Dissel think too...

      In short: if only you were really like a number by Mrs. Mr. Hanneke Schipper treated. Then you and we would all have been much better off...

      Reply
      1. Jan G.M. van der Zanden

        The point is: disproportionality remains a hollow concept if it is not expressed numerically in a cost/benefit analysis.
        As the Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport does every day when calculating drug therapies, etc., etc.

        Reply

Post a Comment

Je e-mailadres wordt niet gepubliceerd. Required fields are marked with *